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Episode 274:
Show Notes Â
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The episode centers on mindset, emotional management, and self-compassion, exploring how setbacks and challenging circumstances can be navigated for personal growth rather than self-judgment.
- Mindset is defined as a set of skills and frameworks to help create and maintain healthy behaviours, not mere discipline or grit.
- Emotional responses to adversity (such as feeling "blah" or excluded) are common, and processing these emotions rather than suppressing them is crucial for well-being.
- The hosts share personal anecdotes: Dr Lucy describes a public speaking event where her special needs were overlooked, leading to feelings of exclusion and triggering emotional eating urges; Dr Mary shares an incident with her child that led to feelings of shame and self-reflection.
- Emotional eating is often a response to boxed-up, unprocessed feelings; developing awareness and "mind management" skills helps avoid unhealthy coping strategies.
- The SLC framework (Self-reflection, Learning, Self-compassion) is introduced as a practical approach to work through difficult emotions and foster useful beliefs and actions.
- Self-compassion is stressed as the middle path between harsh self-criticism and denial, allowing individuals to process regret and make healthier choices going forward.
- Vulnerability and acceptance of human imperfection are key themes, encouraging listeners to forgive themselves and others when mistakes happen.
Practical Advice
- Celebrate behaviours that align with your goals, even if they're small achievements, to reinforce positive change.
- Journaling is proposed as a method to process emotions, though it may initially intensify discomfort before healing occurs.
- Naming emotions ("name it to tame it") helps reduce their intensity and enables constructive action.
- Recognise the difference between useful and unhelpful beliefs, especially in difficult moments, and choose perspectives that support growth and resilience.
Episode 274:Â
Transcript
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Mary Barson (0:04) Hello, my lovely friends. I am Dr Mary Barson.
Dr Lucy Burns (0:09) And I'm Dr Lucy Burns. We are doctors and weight management and metabolic health experts.
Both (0:16) And this is the Real Health and Weight Loss podcast!
Dr Lucy Burns (0:21) Good morning, lovely friends. Dr Lucy here. How are you on a spectacular Tuesday morning? Well, it might not be that spectacular depending on where you are, but you know, mindset is everything. I am with Dr Mary this morning, of course. Gorgeous, gorgeous Dr Mary. How are you, my friend?
Dr Mary Barson (00:39) Pretty good. Pretty good. I had some trying circumstances over the weekend, as did you, but overall I’m feeling good and keen to talk about how we can use trying circumstances to create helpful action. That's actually what I would like to talk about today.
Dr Lucy Burns (00:56) Absolutely. And I think it's interesting. We sometimes say, you know, people always go, life threw me a curveball. Life is a curveball. It's never throwing you one. It is always a curveball. You know, you can go from feeling yay to, you know, from hazard to blah, to sort of reverse engineer one of our favourite sayings. You can go like that in the blink of an eye. So, you know, life is most definitely a curveball. So we thought that we would talk about what you do when you are feeling blah and how you can navigate your way through this situation without, you know, resorting to bags of Maltesers. It's my old favourite strategy that I no longer use.
Dr Mary Barson (01:39) I used to use Ben and Jerry's ice cream a long time ago. Yep. Yeah. So I was thinking it would be useful for us to talk about what we mean when we talk about mindset. I think when we say the word mindset, a lot of people would go straight to discipline. You know, Nike, just do it. You know, the person running on the treadmill, clearly in pain, but with a determined look on their face, just doing it anyway. You know, white-knuckling your way through the hunger. That's not what we mean at all by mindset, not at all.
Dr Lucy Burns (02:11) No. No, mindset's not grit. Grit can be a helpful component of, you know, managing situations at times, but mindset and grit are not the same thing.
Dr Mary Barson (02:24) Yep.
Dr Lucy Burns (02:25) So, you know, if we wanted to define mindset, it's probably a good opportunity to do so. Miss, what are your thoughts on mindset?
Dr Mary Barson (02:31) I think mindset is a set of skills and frameworks that you can use to make the healthy behaviours that you want, or the behaviours that you want, easy. So just a way to be able to deal with life's ups and downs in a way that allows you to live your life the way you want to with relative ease. That's mindset.
Dr Lucy Burns (02:55) Yeah, absolutely. For me, I kind of think of it as like mind management. So there's stories in our heads, there's thoughts in our heads. Some of them are helpful, some of them are unhelpful. We actually can steer the mind ship, and sometimes we don't realise. So we can change those stories, we can change those beliefs, we can create thoughts and beliefs that are useful to us. But you need to understand what your underlying thoughts and beliefs are in the first place. You can't make any changes if you don't know what your brain is already doing or why you already believe what you believe.
Dr Mary Barson (03:32) Yes, I love that, that we can steer the mind ship rather than the mind ship having to steer us. That is good.
Dr Lucy Burns (03:39) Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's really interesting, even the word mind set. Set kind of implies fixed in some ways, you know. Like if something is set, it's done. Whereas I think mind management work is ongoing. It doesn't have to be hard, but you can't, it isn't a set and forget.
Dr Mary Barson (04:00) No, it's not. It is mind management. And when I think of the word mindset, I think what comes to mind is like the Instagram kind of Jim Blow, you know, pointing their finger at you, like mansplaining, just sort of telling you what to do, do what I do, and you'll look like me.And I think that can be, that's the image in my head, that can be I think particularly unhelpful for all the beautiful women out there because, as women, we so often can feel unheard, overlooked, invisible, as you were saying just off-air Lucy, except for when we're judged. And we're judged all the time, judged if we're in bigger bodies, judged if we're old, judged if we have an opinion, judged if we don't have an opinion, judged if we wear make-up, if we don't wear make-up. We're judged all the time, but yet also can be overlooked and dismissed.
Dr Lucy Burns (04:53) Ah, absolutely. And there is a, it's this fine line between feeling invisible and then feeling like the spotlight is on you for perhaps a reason that you don't want. So, you know, it might be, as an example, you know, when people, and I've seen this again in medical centres. People go into a medical centre and there's no seat, there's no chairs in the waiting room that don't have arms. And so for some people, a chair with arms is really tricky because, you know, that you have to fit into it. And so then all of a sudden you're standing there and someone says, go and have a seat. And your brain goes, what? I can't fit into any of those seats. And so then suddenly you become the problem rather than the seating.
Dr Mary Barson (05:39) Yes, yes. And you've gone from, yeah, being invisible to a spectacle straight in a second. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think having, you know, drawing attention to yourself is great if that's what you want to do, but it's the unwanted attention which is problematic for so many of us.
Dr Lucy Burns (05:57) Ah, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah. People want to just feel included. They don't want to feel excluded through either invisibility or being made to be the centre of attention for reasons that they don't want to be the centre of attention for.
Dr Mary Barson (06:14) Absolutely.So, as women in this world, we can often have more of these, these sort of setbacks, I suppose. But life, as you said, life is a curveball. Like setbacks are just going to happen all the time. And what we want to talk about today is those useful skills that you can practise to be able to turn setbacks into something helpful, something that's empowering instead of disempowering. It is really doable with just the right skills.
Dr Lucy Burns (06:48) Totally, totally. So, you know, I think that it's helpful maybe if we have some examples which, look, you listening out there may not recognise this specific situation in yourself, but it's an example, I guess, of situations that both you and I have found difficult at times and how we navigated our way through it. So I might start with my recent experience which, look, I have talked about on social media so many of you will have heard this, but it really highlighted, I guess, for me how our feelings and how our brain works. So, lots of you know I do, you know, public speaking both to the public but also professionals, to medical conferences. And medicine, medical conferences, they never pay their speakers, so that's just a given. You give up your time, your day, as part of just giving back to your profession. And it's a sort of a professional obligation. And so, you know, that's just part of it. But for me, I have now specific needs related to the disability that I now have. And so, walking is tricky. I can still walk, but it's not easy. I can still stand, but I cannot do stairs. So when I am asked to be a speaker, I clearly articulate this, describe what is going to be helpful to me, and it can be something like either there is no stage and I'm just standing at a lectern in the room, or if there is a stage, that there is a ramp so that I can use my scooter to scoot onto the stage, which is what we organised, Miss, when we did the Low Carb Roadshow. It became clear. It wasn't always easy, I'm going to say that, but that's a separate issue. But certainly there are plenty of videos of me scooting onto the stage so that I can present. So it doesn't have to be that hard. Anyway, unfortunately, despite sort of articulating my needs, the event organisers just forgot about them. And it wasn't until literally as I'm walking down to the front of the room that I realised actually there wasn't a lectern set up for me. There wasn't anything. It was all just up on the stage. And so all of a sudden I'm saying to the organisers, you know, where am I speaking? And they've gone, oh, well, up there. I go, well, no, unless I'm Jesus and suddenly there's a miracle, I can't do that. And so then there was this sort of kerfuffle as everybody's running around and the tech had to get set up and all of this thing. And so they didn't have a lectern for me. I couldn't stand and present. I had to sit down. And the only place, there wasn't a place for me to really sit that wasn't then blocking the big screens, and so I had to sit sort of in the back corner of the stage. So honestly it was, you know, my brain, I had to kind of just go, okay, really what I wanted to do was just run away. I actually just wanted to go home. I just wanted to say, you know what, I'm doing this, goodbye. But, you know, I am a professional and I have committed to this, and so I just went, okay, this is what I'm doing and, you know, people are all there looking as the tech are micing me up and I'm sitting down and my computer's sort of half balanced because there wasn't, you know, normally when you speak at a lectern there's a lovely big sort of screen that only the speaker can see that's got your slides on it. So you know what's coming. You know what you're up to. And so I had a tiny little computer screen balanced on the corner of the stage. The MC had to turn around and look down to introduce me. He was up on the stage. No, I was sort of just down in the back blocks it felt like. So, look, cut a long story short, I did the talk. It wasn't my best talk. I was flustered. I felt, again, part of me is just going, can we just go now? And then when I finished, you know, look, honestly, I just wanted to go home. And so I didn't want to think about what was happening. I didn't want to think about my feelings. I just wanted to go home. And so, you know, basically I did a little scoot around of the venue, answered a few questions from people, and then I just went home. And on the way home, how's this for wit? On the way home, my brain is going, Big Mac would be nice. My other brain is going, what? And he goes, oh, well, you're pretty hungry. You know, there wasn't any food at the venue. And there was food, but it was up too high for me to reach. So again, the weird thing is, and again, maybe people out there will be able to relate to this bit, nothing in my brain said to me, you feel sad, you feel rejected, you feel invisible, you feel irrelevant, you feel excluded, you feel humiliated. Nothing said that, because I had put all that, all of those very painful feelings, in a box. So they're in a box, shut away, not to be thought about. And instead, my brain offered me the option of hunger. Oh, you must be hungry. And so, as I'm driving, it was an hour and a quarter drive home, I drive past heaps of Maccas, and every time my brain goes, no, don't. So part of my brain is going, no, we're not having McDonald's, and the other part of my brain is going, don't worry, there's one right near home. It's so weird. Don't worry, there's one right near home. And so as I come off the freeway exit, I go and literally change my route to drive past the McDonald's that's right near my house, and then my brain goes, well, if you're so hungry, you can just eat at home. You're just about there now. And so that's what I did. And so I went home and, of course, then my brain, you know, again, I did a little celebration because part of my brain, it doesn't want to eat Big Macs. Like it honestly doesn't. Part of my brain does, part of my brain doesn't. Again, it was a bit of a chit-chat. Lots of you will recognise that concept of the chit-chat, and I think it is really helpful to recognise when you do behaviours that are in alignment with your goals or what you want to do, that we celebrate those, that we bang on about that. But when you and I, Miss, will talk about emotional eating, it's not always obvious as to what the emotion is.
Dr Mary Barson (13:21) That's right, especially as you've articulated it perfectly, you boxed up your feelings, and that was extremely sensible. You were in a public setting in front of all your colleagues. You had a job to do, which was to do the talk, and you had chosen to do it. So even though you were feeling this anger, this rejection, this humiliation, this exclusion, that wasn't the time. So you very appropriately, protectively put that all in a box. But, you know, those negative emotions are still there. They're just sort of boxed up and sort of suppressed, but they're still kind of jiggling away in your brain. And our brains, thinking machines, brains just want us to feel safe and they want us to be safe, to feel good and to be safe. And from our brain's point of view, if we feel good, it's the same as being safe. Logically, that's not necessarily the case, but it is how our brain is wired. So you're the waiter in your brain, served up the Big Mac will make us feel safe. These emotions don't feel safe, but the Big Mac will, and then just the emotions were still really boxed up. So it is likely that the emotions were driving the desire for the Big Mac, but you weren't consciously aware of that. And I think that can happen a lot for people with the cravings. You know, they just have a hard day, really want the chocolate, but don't necessarily know why they want the chocolate.
Dr Lucy Burns (14:41) No, absolutely. And, you know, the interesting thing was that my brain did not process those emotions for about three days. It just pretended everything was fine. Yeah, I told my husband about this situation, and he said, oh, how shitty. And, you know, everyone recognises that this was less than ideal, except maybe the event organiser, who probably thought they did a sterling job sorting it all out. But the emotion actually didn't get processed properly for three days, and it was only when I wrote about it. So this is why we will talk about journaling, for example, as being something because you can process your emotions and journaling's not easy. Like I'd love to say, oh, journaling's great. You journal it and you feel so much better. You actually don't. You can journal it and you feel like a piece of shit at the end of it because you've suddenly unboxed these pretty painful emotions. But if we don't ever process painful emotions, then they just sit there in their box stuffed away below the surface with your waiter brain constantly offering you Big Macs to fix them.
Dr Mary Barson (15:51) That's right. They cause harm. And we have the framework for. Mind management. Mind management. Yeah. So the SLC, self-reflection, learning, self-compassion. And the self-reflection is the first bit, but it can suck, and yet I think you need to be prepared for this, and leaning into a bit of a grit would be helpful. Because if our brain is compartmentalising, it's because it thinks that that's not safe, feeling that emotion is not safe. And I sort of have this idea in my mind if something feels really, really yucky, it's like my brain thinks we have to keep that door closed because there's a big man-eating tiger in there. And if I open up that door, this tiger is going to sort of come out and cause all kinds of pain and injury and everything will be much worse. But I often find that when I do do some self-reflection, try and figure out what I'm feeling, what's behind that, I open up the door and it's not a tiger, it's just some smelly cat poo. You know, that's what I thought was really, really terrifying, still sucks, doesn't suck nearly as much as I thought it would. And then, you know, you can clean out that room and your brain just feels so much better. So it is true that self-reflection, it's not positivity, it's not like this is great, everything's fine, everything happens for a reason, you know. You do need to acknowledge that the situation is not ideal, that the situation is a bit crappy, that you may even need to acknowledge that the situation is really crappy and that can take courage and it's often not a pleasant thing to do. But sort of whitewashing, pasting over it with everything's fine, everything's fine, it's not a sustainable strategy. No, not at all. No, it isn't, that's right. Sugar coating, not helpful. Yes, we don't like sugar in many films, you know. Yes.
Dr Lucy Burns (17:42) Yes, but yes, or bright-siding. Yes, we need to acknowledge that things, you know, that bad things happen to people. And when I say bad things, it can be things that make them feel bad and bad is a very generic word and is not really an emotion, but it can be the umbrella term for uncomfortable at anything, at a minor level to a major level.
Dr Mary Barson (18:07) Yes, and grounding ourselves in that honesty is really helpful. I had an example that's much more mild, I think. Well, I don't know, it depends.
Dr Lucy Burns (18:16) No, no, no. I think, again, it's easy for our brain to do that comparison, isn't it? Yes, that's right. Oh, my problem's minor.
Dr Mary Barson (18:23) That's right. I shouldn't even be talking about this. Exactly, self-reflection is so interesting. So I yelled at my toddler on the weekend and obviously, you know, that's just we do this from time to time for parents, but it's so incongruent with, you know, my goals and who I am and it was over a stupid banana. My kids eat bananas. I don't. We're all, you know, whole food based. Yeah, yeah, bananas are whole food, yeah. It is, totally. So little man, little three-year-old is in the back seat and we'd just been at the shops and that was sort of a draining experience in and of itself and we're on the way home and he's eating his banana in the back seat and he's like, Mum, I'm done, I'm done, take it, take it, take it, take it, take it, and like driving on a highway. I calmly explained to my toddler, I can't take the banana, love, you're just going to have to hold on to that and he's like, don't take it, don't take it. I'm like, I can't, I can't. So he drops it on the seat. That's fine. No worries. I can clean that up. I'm not a clean break by any stretch. So when I get home, get everyone out of the car, get the food out of the car, get him out of the car, I grab the mushy banana off the seat and I throw it into the bush and that was just the worst possible thing I could have done in that moment. My son was just like, my banana. I'm already a bit tetchy by this stage. But, you know, I get down on his level. I'm like, sorry, love, didn't know you wanted it, thought it was just your discarded banana. He's like, why did you do that? I'm like, calmly, I'm sorry, I just thought we were done. And he just kept on, my banana, but Mummy, why, but why, but why, and it just sort of went on and on. And my calm explanations only lasted, you know, probably about another eight seconds and then I just passive aggressive, you know, blew up, oh, because I don't care about you, you know, totally over the top. And then I went into a big shame spiral and, you know, went, sorry, repaired, apologised, did all the things that you have to do, but then the shame. For me personally, shame is such an uncomfortable emotion and it's one that I am prone to, you know. I do tend to, I'm one of those people who is prone to blame myself overly, like everything is my fault.
Dr Lucy Burns (20:33) And not just is it my fault, it makes me a bad person. That's right.
Dr Mary Barson (20:36) Yes.
Dr Lucy Burns (20:37) You know, shame is there's something wrong with me. I'm bad. I'm a bad mother. I'm a bad whatever it is—bad friend, bad sister, bad doctor, bad, just bad.
Dr Mary Barson (20:48) Totally, just bad. I am just bad, yeah. And in that situation, if I try and argue with myself that I'm not a bad parent, that I'm not bad, I actually am not going to win that argument, apart from the fact that, by definition, if you're arguing with yourself, you know, you're going to lose anyway. I just can't, because in the moment, in the throes of that emotion, when my amygdala is activated, I really believe it. Like, I really do. So in that moment, the thing that really helps me is to just name what I'm feeling. I feel shame and probably also anger, but shame is the main one. I feel shame. And even just being able to acknowledge that initially makes it a little bit worse, but then it passes more quickly. That "name it to tame it"—really amazing thing about human brains—that if we're able to name our emotions, we can reduce the intensity of them. Then after that, I'm able to then turn this around. Okay, so what is a useful thing to believe right now? Is it useful to believe that I'm the world's worst mother? No, that's not helpful. Is it useful to believe that I'm human? I'm going to explode sometimes. I can initiate repair. One moment doesn't define me as a mother. Is that useful? Yes, that's useful. All right, let's work on believing that and then engage in the helpful behaviour. In this situation, I went and found the toddler, repaired, moved on. We're fine.
Dr Lucy Burns (22:12) Yeah, absolutely. And I think the interesting thing is that, again, that is like a seemingly trivial issue. He's had a meltdown over the banana, and then you've reacted to his meltdown, which the whole point of the SLC is—that self-reflection, the learning, doing it with compassion. So the compassion bit here is that you're a human, and human emotions are also contagious. So if he's melting down, then you're more likely to melt down. The shame cycle will tell you, but you're the grown-up and he's the child. You should be better than this. But that doesn't always translate to reality. So we need to recognise that as humans, we are fallible. No one is perfect at any stage ever. And it helps us, I think, both to forgive ourselves when we make mistakes and also to forgive other people when they make mistakes. Now, again, coming—you know, the whole world's ever all about me—but the person, the event organiser, made a mistake for me. I know they didn't do it on purpose. They're not a bad person. They're not out there to get me. They're not thinking, oh, how can we literally trip Lucy up? They're not doing any of that. So I understand that that was a mistake. For me, what it is, is just highlighting that what they need to do—and again, I don't know, by the time this comes to air, hopefully they have—they didn't do what you did with Max. They haven't repaired. So they haven't contacted me and said, you know, we're really sorry. I've contacted them and let them know my experience. I'm waiting on a reply. Again, you know, I only spoke to them yesterday, so hopefully they'll reply today and hopefully they'll repair, and then we can basically—I can put that box—it doesn't need to be boxed up because the box now will be empty. You know, I don't need to box away the emotion. They will repair. I will go, okay. Yes, I'll make steps to make sure that that experience doesn't happen to me again. But, you know, at the end of the day, I think unless you're dealing with a psychopath—and I mean that, like a proper psychopath, not just the way people use it. Psychopathy is when people cannot, they have no empathy. They don't have emotion. They don't relate to other people. They don't feel guilt. They don't feel shame. Those emotions are just—they're devoid of those. So, the majority of us are not dealing with psychopaths, and the majority of us aren't psychopaths. So, again, this is where whenever we feel an emotion, I think, oh good, that just validates you're not a psychopath. That's a very useful belief.
Dr Mary Barson (25:02) That's helpful. Yeah, sure.
Dr Lucy Burns (25:04) It is. So we can always come up with beliefs that can be helpful for us, but recognising that the processing of emotions is really important.
Dr Mary Barson (25:17) And there was a time, like when my eldest child was really little, where if I had done something similar—as all people do, as all parents do—I wouldn't have been able to, didn't have those skills to recognise the emotion, to do that reflection, that learning, that self-compassion, and I absolutely used Ben and Jerry's ice cream. In fact, I would wait until she'd gone to sleep, or until she was otherwise occupied, go and sneak the ice cream into the bathroom, because it was the only door that locks in the house reliably. All the other locks were a bit iffy. Lock the door, sit on the bathroom floor or on the edge of the bath and eat the ice cream, because it helped the emotions feel better. And that was absolutely incongruous with my goals. I knew that it was unhelpful. I knew that it was feeding my insulin resistance, it was making my PCOS worse, it was making my weight worse. All of these things—I was doing it anyway because it was a way to deal with the emotions. I'm very pleased to say that with a few mindsets, I don't need that anymore. My brain might still go, hey, you know what would make you feel better? Ice cream. But I don't necessarily need to accept everything my brain offers me.
Dr Lucy Burns (26:21) No, no. And do you know what? I think the third, like we talked a bit about compassion. I was saying this to somebody the other day, that if, let's say, on the way home, let's say I had had the Big Mac, then the compassion comes with the, okay, we had this because we were looking for a way to make us feel better, and in the moment this seemed like a reasonable option. And it may not be what you want to do all the time, but it also doesn't make you a bad person for doing it. It's like, you know, you're not bad, you're not broken, you're not horrible, you're not terrible, you're not weak, you're not undisciplined. All it is, is that your brain offered you a solution because it was feeling a lot of something, whether that's pain, shame, humiliation, whatever it is. So when we do this as part of the self-reflection, it's not always easy because sometimes we have to kind of go, okay, well, I did something that I wish, you know, that I regretted maybe. And because, again, we don't want to necessarily admit that we did something we regret, and regret is another painful emotion, we won't even do that. We would just go, oh, well, tomorrow's another day, I won't do that again. And it's like, okay, we'll numb—denial. Yeah, yeah. Beating yourself up about it isn't helpful because that means we will never do self-reflection, because it's too scary. When I say scary, it's scary for our brain because it thinks it's going to be berated, it thinks it's going to get told off, it thinks it's going to be told that it's useless or hopeless or terrible or whatever. So we recognise that we've done something, there is always a driver for that behaviour, and it is usually around the brain trying to make you feel safe. And what we want to do is develop the skills, these, you know, mind management skills to make choices that are different to the ones we've always made.
Dr Mary Barson (28:21) Yes. That self-compassion allows you to walk that line between absolutely berating yourself—I'm useless, I'm hopeless, I know I couldn't do this—or just ignoring it, pretending it didn't happen, and not processing it. It's that middle path that we need to be able to walk down, and we can. We can. We practise with mind management skills.
Dr Lucy Burns (28:43) Absolutely, absolutely. All right, lovely friends, this has been a deep and meaningful episode. Yes, it has. And, you know, again, part of this is vulnerability. We are all human. We all make mistakes. We all have situations where we find ourselves feeling—you know, uncomfortable seems such a benign word for what can be really, really deeply painful emotions. We all have that. But we can all find a place where we can manage these in a way that is useful to the whole of us.
Dr Mary Barson (29:19) Yes, and that is the key word, just finding those useful beliefs, those useful thoughts so that you can live life the way that you want to. Absolutely.
Dr Lucy Burns (29:29) All right, lovelies, we will catch up with you next week. Have a spectacular week.Â
Dr Mary Barson (29:35) Bye now.
Dr Lucy Burns (29:38) The information shared on the Real Health and Weight Loss Podcast, including show notes and links, provides general information only. It is not a substitute, nor is it intended to provide individualised medical advice, diagnosis or treatment, nor can it be construed as such. Please consult your doctor for any medical concerns.
