ADHD, PERIMENOPAUSE AND MONEY MINDSET
WITH DENISE DUFFIELD-THOMAS
One of Australia's Most Popular Podcasts with Hundreds of 5 Star Reviews
Grab your FREE Ebook copy now!
Have you struggled to lose weight and keep it off?
Start your journey to boost metabolism and transform your body into a fat-burning powerhouse.
Episode 280:
Show Notes
Episode 280 of The Real Health and Weight Loss Podcast features Dr. Lucy Burns in conversation with Denise Duffield-Thomas (Denise DT), a money mindset expert who discusses her experiences with ADHD, perimenopause, and financial empowerment for women.
ADHD in Women
Denise was diagnosed with ADHD at age 42, having been missed as a child despite obvious symptoms including forgetfulness, anxiety, and trichotillomania. Women present differently than men, with hyperactivity often manifesting internally rather than through disruptive behaviour. Common challenges include time blindness, chronic lateness, and difficulty with transitions, though many women develop coping mechanisms to mask their symptoms.
Perimenopause and ADHD Collision
The intersection of perimenopause and ADHD can be "catastrophic" for many women, with Denise initially thinking she had dementia due to severe cognitive symptoms. Social media platforms provided crucial information and language to advocate for proper diagnosis when traditional medical channels fell short. Getting a diagnosis was profoundly validating and healing, allowing women to understand their experiences weren't personal failures.
Money Mindset for Women
Money mindset encompasses the collection of stories, thoughts, and beliefs about money that influence financial behaviors and self-sabotage patterns. Women's work, particularly in caring professions, is often devalued with expectations to provide services for free or minimal compensation. The traditional "time equals money" formula doesn't work in modern entrepreneurship, creating cognitive dissonance for many women transitioning to business ownership.
Medical Advocacy and Self-Care
Women face significant medical gaslighting, with dismissal of perimenopause symptoms being particularly common. There's unnecessary shame around seeking medical help, whether for mental health, hormone therapy, or ADHD medication, when these treatments should be normalised like glasses or insulin. The "pills and skills" approach combines medication with lifestyle changes for optimal functioning rather than viewing them as mutually exclusive.
Perfectionism and All-or-Nothing Thinking
Many women struggle with perfectionist tendencies, waiting for perfect conditions before starting health initiatives, business ventures, or personal projects. The fear of "making a fuss" or being seen as a burden prevents women from seeking necessary help and advocating for their needs. Giving oneself permission to do imperfect, consistent actions and change one's mind is essential for sustainable progress.
Practical Solutions
Automation and technology can eliminate recurring problems like lost keys, reducing mental load for more important tasks. Proper pricing and boundaries in caring professions prevent burnout and actually expand capacity to help more people. HRT and ADHD medication provide the bandwidth to engage in healthy behaviors and pursue meaningful activities.
Cultural Change
Normalising conversations about money, menopause, and ADHD helps women realise their experiences are valid and shared by others. The next generation is learning to advocate for their bodies and needs without shame, breaking cycles of suffering in silence. Women should pursue joy and activities they love without waiting for permission or perfect circumstances.
Episode 280:
Transcript
Dr Mary Barson (0:04) Hello, my lovely friends. I am Dr Mary Barson.
Dr Lucy Burns (0:09) And I'm Dr Lucy Burns. We are doctors and weight management and metabolic health experts.
Both (0:16) And this is the Real Health and Weight Loss podcast!
Dr Lucy Burns (0:21) Good morning lovely friends, how are you this morning on a beautiful morning in Melbourne? I don't know what it's like in your part of the world. I am without Dr Mary this morning, but you know when I don't have Dr Mary, I always have a fabulous guest for you — and I am super excited to bring a guest you may or may not have heard of, but she is brilliant. Her name is Denise. Denise DT is what she's known as, and the things we're going to be talking about today — we're going to be talking about perimenopause, we're going to be talking about ADHD, and we're going to be talking about her expert topic, which is actually money mindset. So Denise, welcome to the podcast.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (00:57) Thank you so much for having me. I love talking about ADHD and perimenopause as well as money mindset, so it's perfect.
Dr Lucy Burns (01:05) Good, yeah.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (01:07) Good mix of all my passions.
Dr Lucy Burns (01:08) Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think it's interesting, isn't it? There's a lot of talk about ADHD, and everyone's going, “Oh my god, everyone's got ADHD these days,” and it feels a bit like that. But I guess the thing is that ADHD is way more common, particularly in women, than we realised. So I'd love for you to share with us your ADHD journey, diagnosis — whatever, you know, you feel comfortable sharing.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (01:31) Well, I mean, I was one of the ones who was completely missed as a child, even though in hindsight it was so super obvious. But I think it's because my mum was also undiagnosed that I felt like I was kind of the normal one. So I always thought of myself as Safi to her Adina in Ab Fab. Yeah, so my bar for normal was very skewed, I think. But I did the classic stuff — I was very forgetful, I'd forget my bus pass every day, I was always, you know, forgetting my keys, so I'd have to wait till my mum came home. So I'd go and sit in the secondhand bookstore and read books. And I think what I really learnt though, is I learnt to improvise because I was never prepared, and I learnt to just fake it till you make it. But it also created a real sense — I always had a lot of anxiety. I had trichotillomania as a kid too, which is the hair-twisting kind of stuff, and I just felt like there was something wrong with me. That's really tricky, especially when you're bright like I was, but I just felt like there was something wrong with me. And especially when I transitioned to things — so primary school, I kind of found my little hacks, went to high school where suddenly I had to be in a different room every period. I could never get that straight. And then same with when I went to university — the transition was just a disaster. And I was only diagnosed at 42, so it was like four years ago. And the only reason I was diagnosed, I think, is because perimenopause — I know this is probably such a common story — the perimenopause and ADHD collision is real and catastrophic, I think, for so many of us. And that's what it was for me. I thought I had dementia. And I feel like it's such a common space now. It's like I went on antidepressants for a little while, and then I am just so grateful we live in a time — I know social media gets so much bad reputation — but if it wasn't for Facebook groups and TikTok and Instagram Reels, I would never have even had the language to go to my GP and say, “I think this could be it.” So I’m so grateful for this time. So yeah, that’s kind of my story. You mentioned before we hit record too that you read my book Chill and Prosper, but I have to tell you it used to be called Chillpreneur and it got a rename. I actually wrote it pre-diagnosis, and I didn’t realise I was writing a manual for ADHD entrepreneurs. And then when we did the relaunch of it, I had been diagnosed in that time, so I could actually put a voice to some of the tips I gave in that for ADHD people.
Dr Lucy Burns (04:09) Yeah, absolutely. And again that was — I think I read that book and I go, oh my god, this is so good, this is me, this is — I lose my keys all the time. And I think the thing with ADHD is, for women, women present differently to men, or girls present differently to boys. So the classic was, you know, the archetype is always, you know, the boy that’s disrupting, the boy that’s loud, the boy that’s naughty, the boy that doesn’t listen, the boy that’s banging things in the background. Whereas girls are often, you know, their hyperactivity may not necessarily be obvious — it’s inside their brain, and they’re off with like, you know, 100 tabs open. But the interesting thing for me, and I don’t know if this was you, is like chronic lateness. I just could not get myself on time anywhere. It’s such an obvious thing — people go, “Well, just turn up on time.” Yeah, yeah, thanks for that tip. But being able to do that — I don’t know what it was — I just wasn’t able to do it.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (05:08) And I mean, that’s what it was with my mum too, right? So my mum would always be late from picking me up and things like that, so I feel like I did create some coping mechanisms from a very young age. But I was never really late when I started to be able to control my time — but I would be just on time, and I would have manipulated time and space and, you know, done all these things just to get me there on time. And recently I’ve got a friend who is one of those people who’s half an hour early for things. And so I said — it was for a dance thing, we’re both in an adult ballet studio — and I said, “Look, I know you have anxiety about getting places early, so why don’t you tell me what time you want me to pick you up?” And it was such this amasing thing — we got there and I went, we got a park right next to the venue, we weren’t arriving sweaty and stressed, we got to the change room, we got to pick the best spot. And I was like, how has no one told me about this? But of course they had! And I just went, oh, this is such an interesting experience because I remember saying to someone, you know, I always just get somewhere running on time. She goes, “Oh, you mustn’t have anxiety.” I said, “Oh no, no, no — there’s plenty of anxiety involved in that! It’s just really hard to change behaviour.”
Dr Lucy Burns (06:23) Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s one of the things with ADHD — people get time blindness, and it’s really hard to estimate exactly how long something is going to take you. And we tend to underestimate it rather than overestimate it. So yeah, I just used to think, oh, in my head, no matter where I go, it’s going to take half an hour. Like go to the airport — oh, that’ll be half an hour, even though it’s like 50 minutes to the airport from my house. Go, you know, to the next suburb — that’ll be half an hour.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (06:52) Yeah, it’s nuts. It is nuts. And also I think now too, we can use a bit of technology for that — to go, how long do things take? And it’s just fascinating how we don’t learn from that, right? We do it again and again. And I think every ADHD person has had that experience of like running sweaty to the plane. And even — I actually got back from the airport on Monday night, and I just got into my Uber and he popped the trunk, and I went — my suitcase! And I had to run back into the airport because I said, “It’s okay if you want to cancel, I guess I’ll just walk around.” And I’d just forgotten my suitcase. Yeah, yeah, I just left it behind. So I was like, I cannot be trusted as an adult. But I think too, so many bits of my work is like, how can we automate things? How can we give ourselves as much grace as possible? But also, I think we often have so much self-blame and shame around our behaviours — and giving ourselves grace, and I think for me, getting a label was so healing.
Dr Lucy Burns (08:00) Yeah, yeah. It’s pretty validating, isn’t it?
Denise Duffield-Thomas (08:05) It absolutely is. And when someone new gets diagnosed, I congratulate them, and I’m like, “Your membership card is in the post—but no one’s gonna remember to send it!” And it’s just—it’s such a validating thing. I felt the same way though with perimenopause. I had a lot of people almost gaslight me about it and go, “No, no, don’t give in to the propaganda.” And I was like, we would never say this to a teenager who’s experiencing their first period. We wouldn’t say, “It’s all in your head,” because it’s just a part of life. And, you know, there’s so much gaslighting around medical stuff for women in general. But I just have found it so validating to go, “Oh, this is my thing.” And I’ve also since found out that I’ve got dyscalculia as well.
Dr Lucy Burns (08:50) Oh yeah, yeah.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (08:51) And that’s like dyslexia with numbers, and that’s been healing for me too—to go, “I can’t process numbers like that.” Because I, from a money mindset point of view, actually tied that quite closely with, “Oh, I really struggle with math, so therefore I’m bad with money,” even though they’re separate things.
Dr Lucy Burns (09:08) Yeah, yeah. That’s interesting. It’s interesting, the stories, isn’t it, that our brain gets two bits of information, creates a story, and that then becomes fact in our mind.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (09:16) Absolutely. And I’ll see this with money mindset stuff too—people who have grown up in the exact same household, same experiences, and they have very different viewpoints on money, very different money experiences. So there’s a real nature-nurture side that I find very fascinating to my work sometimes—to dig out some of those money stories. “What did you make them mean, and what did you create from that experience?”
Dr Lucy Burns (09:41) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And look, it’s interesting—we talk quite a bit about health, you know, how people want to approach their health, and it can be very similar to money in that they’ve got stories around what their behavior means or things they can’t do or things they’ll never achieve. But tell us a little bit about what money mindset actually means for people that may not have any experience with it.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (10:07) Oh, absolutely. So, money mindset really is just our collection of stories and thoughts and beliefs that we have about money. And my work is really helping people to understand those things, because we want to be able to understand our patterns and to see where our sabotages lie. And definitely, in the world of money, there’s obviously huge disparity around pay and things like that—so I’m not saying that that doesn’t exist—but it’s just like, what do we have control over with our money? We don’t realise sometimes, until we dig it out and do excavation work (as I call it), how much we’ve accumulated—not just from our own experiences with maybe our own family, but even the time that we grow up in. What messages around money are in TV shows, movies, even? Because I work internationally, different countries and different cities almost will have different viewpoints on money—who’s allowed to make money, what are you allowed to make money from—and we internalise all of that, right? And I do see people have very recurring sabotaging behaviors until they recognise it, sometimes understand where it came from, and have compassion for themselves. But also, be exposed to other people’s viewpoints on money and see either normalised different ways of making money or normalised success. And also too, I think women are so good at talking transparently about things—but money feels like something that we’re not allowed to talk about.
Dr Lucy Burns (11:48) Yeah, it’s a dirty word. And again, you know, we help people with weight management—weight loss is the dirty word, money is a dirty word. We don’t want to talk about any of those because, you know, it’s triggering and people feel icky. So I like the idea that we’re normalising it. In fact, you know, we want to get into perimenopause—menopause is a dirty word. It’s like, you know, why would you want to be talking about female reproductive health? So if we think about money mindset then, I think lots of people will have the idea that, you know, making money is greedy—that you’re ripping people off. If you’re doing something for the world, well, you know, we should be doing it for free because if you get paid, well then you’re just commercialising it. What are your thoughts around those sorts of processes?
Denise Duffield-Thomas (12:36) Oh, I mean the “you should do it for free” thing—it’s so interesting because so much of that is pointed towards women and women’s work, right? And so, especially if you’re doing something like creating a podcast, creating a blog—I find that some creators will struggle to monetise things like that because it’s almost seen as women’s work to help other people and to share information. And especially if our work is related to women’s issues or related to emotional labor, right? So I see this particularly for people who are in the health fields, in the wellness fields, but also dance teachers, you know—it’s like, if you’re doing it for the love of dance, you shouldn’t make money out of it. If you’re helping someone with a very personal thing like, you know, a health problem, or in the very delicate fields like helping people around death or being a doula or something like that, it’s like, that’s seen as women’s work and you shouldn’t charge for it. I think what’s fun though is to start to look at the nuances around what you’ve been taught so you can kind of go, “Oh yeah, my dad said rich people are greedy,” right? But it’s looking at the nuances around that. So one of the things I like to dive into is: what’s your relationship between work and money? And for people who are kind of our age, I think most of us had a very analog childhood—and also, work was very linear, like you work for an hour, you get paid for an hour. Yeah, the relationship.
Dr Lucy Burns (14:16) Yeah, it was transactional. Time equals money.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (14:19) Exactly, and it made sense. The formula worked, right? And then suddenly, for me, it was probably not until really university that I started using the internet and stuff like that—but also even understanding the concept of, “Wow, you could get paid for more than just an hour of your time.” And so for me, that kind of came in my early 20s when I wrote an e-book that was for sale, right? It was like, hang on—the relationship, the formula, does not compute in my brain. And even to the point when I did my first audiobook of my self-published book, I felt so guilty when someone bought it because I felt like, “Where’s my effort in this?” That’s already happened! So I felt like anyone who bought it—it was like $10—I thought, “I need to call them and dictate this book to them over the phone to earn this money.”
Dr Lucy Burns (15:17) Yes, yes!
Denise Duffield-Thomas (15:18) And so I just think even exploring that—that’s got nothing to do with what our parents said necessarily, but it’s just like there was a point where the math didn’t math for a lot of us. And I still think, even though I’ve been in the entrepreneurial world for a long time and I feel like everyone knows about entrepreneurship, it still is—for most people—that is their relationship with work and money: “I do a thing, I get paid for a thing.” And so then, if we go outside the bounds of what is seen as real work or hard work versus easy work, you start to come across your own limiting beliefs around that. When my husband came into my business, he was flabbergasted at all of the—just all of the stuff that’s wrapped up in women and money. And we think about things—50 different scenarios in one—and we’re just, we’re all in a tiss about it all the time. So, you know, I’m not saying that the pay gap is not real, because there are so many systemic things that are against us, for sure. But also, especially when you want to go out and do something on your own, all of that stuff is such a big burden to carry. And all my work is just to put a bit of a name on it, because we’re really good at understanding and making connections and putting our stories together. And when you start to do that, you have so much compassion for yourself—to go, “It’s okay for me to have these thoughts and feelings. It doesn’t mean I’m a bad person.” And that’s okay.
Dr Lucy Burns (16:44) Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you’re doing there, because really what you’re taking is societal, cultural norms around money and recognising there’s a difference between how men are culturally raised, often, and how women are. And women’s work traditionally—because most, you know, many women’s jobs are around caring—and caring should be free. And that if you charge something, then you’re uncaring. And how can you be in that job then if you’re uncaring? So I think that’s really interesting. And certainly, you know, obviously as a doctor out talking to many, many female colleagues who do a lot of complex, long medical consults as opposed to the quick fix—you know, maybe a short, I don’t know, ingrown toenail—that it’s actually easy. People will save their hard problems for the lady doctor because she listens and understands, and they’ll do the quick stuff for the man doctor. And so the man doctor’s over there making buckets of money going, “Yeah, this is easy.” Meanwhile, the lady doctor is untangling the perimenopause, the ADHD, the trauma, the mental load that women are carrying—and that takes time. And she then feels guilty to charge that patient. And so then she gets into this little spiral where she’s exhausted, trying to service all the people for hardly any money. They then develop resentment, burnout, and leave the profession.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (18:14) Exactly right. And the flip side of that—where especially people in a caring profession—I always try to get them to think, “Okay, you’re in this because you want to help people.” But actually, when you are undercharging, overdelivering, feeling guilty about it—all of those things—you’re really capped on how many people you can help, even if you burn yourself out immensely, right? But when you get to a stage where you feel like it’s a win-win transaction—for some people that is boundaries as well as charging appropriately—it can then sometimes buy back some time and energy so you can create other things too. I know some industries are really strict on what else you can create, but being able to write a book, to be able to do keynotes and speaking—it’s not an all-or-nothing approach. But sometimes it is that bandwidth, that mental bandwidth, right? To be able to go, “What else can I do to create things for people?” And that’s when, industry-appropriate, some people have then created low-cost e-courses or group programs or things that are a bit more affordable but a bit more high leverage with more people. So you actually can have a bigger impact—but without feeling like it’s at the cost of your own well-being, sanity, health, etc. And we can very easily fall into that martyrdom trap—but it limits our impact. It really does.
Dr Lucy Burns (19:43) Yeah, totally, totally. There’s a few little things there. So, “all or nothing” is a concept we talk a lot about as well. Again, in health, people are either—you know—they’re doing it all: they’re eating well, they’re going to bed early, they’re going to the gym. And then, you know, life comes along and suddenly they do nothing, because life’s stressful. And so they’re not eating badly, they’re watching telly till midnight, they’re sleeping in, they’re not doing their walks—you know, everything stops. And so I think the same can happen a little bit with money. You know, you might be thinking about your money, you start being aware of it, you’re noticing where it comes in, where it goes out—maybe you’re looking at your numbers in your budget—and then suddenly, I don’t know, life gets busy and you stop noticing.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (20:25) Yeah. Sometimes there’s a perfectionism thing that comes into that, right? And it feels like, “I’m only deserving of that if I’m 100% perfect.” And that’s so hard to maintain as a human being. And I think, whether it’s money, health, even, you know, entrepreneurship—all those kinds of things—it’s giving ourselves permission to do the small, consistent, imperfect actions, and to recognise that we’re human beings and we’re allowed to have balance. And I know that’s always been tricky for me too because I can very easily become a bit of a workaholic if left to my own devices. And I am a perfectionist— I’m a Virgo, I’m a huge perfectionist. It doesn’t always work. It can set us up to for failure in so many ways.
Dr Lucy Burns (21:12) Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, again, in entrepreneurship and in health, sometimes you’re sort of waiting for this kind of clear run where everything’s perfect—where, you know, your days are free, you’ve got all this time, you— And again, in health, you know, there’s no functions, there’s no weddings to go to, there’s no girls’ nights out, there’s no book groups—there’s nothing that’s going to challenge me and make it hard, so I’ll be able to do it perfectly. And you’re just waiting forever for that to happen.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (22:41) For sure. Especially, I think too, when we feel like, “Oh, it’s got to be the first of the month,” or “It’s got to be January,” or “It’s got to be when Mercury’s out of retrograde,” or whatever. And I see that a lot with goal-setting—a lot—that it’s like, “I’ll wait till all of the go signals or all of the lights are green before I get started.” Especially—and I see this too, even though I don’t talk about weight loss obviously in my business—I think a lot of women are waiting for the weight to come off before they get their headshots, before they do their videos for their websites, before they give themselves permission to receive and to do whatever they want to do. It’s like waiting for the weight to come off. Or waiting for the perfect age. And you know there’s that whole thing in Hollywood—it’s like, you’re too young, and then suddenly you’re too old, and
Dr Lucy Burns (22:36) Like an avocado
Denise Duffield-Thomas (22:37) Yes, right! A tiny little window! And I just think we’re in such a great time now where we can see that we can create our own culture. Like, there’s no time that’s right—anytime, you know? And especially if you’re waiting for other people to tell you when it’s the right time—you’re waiting for permission—you just have to do it yourself and just decide today.
Dr Lucy Burns (22:57) Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of our favorite sayings is that you are the boss of you. So, you know, only you know your own playbook, your own rules, and you can write them and rewrite them whenever you want.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (23:08) I love the idea of rewriting them. Me too, because I think that some people are afraid to set things because they feel like, well, if I make a decision, that’s it forever. And it’s like, no, no, no — you can change your mind anytime you like.
Dr Lucy Burns (23:22) Yeah, yeah, good way. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, absolutely. So, I just want to toggle back a little bit to the perimenopause side of things because we sort of started and then moved forward. Tell me how — you know, I know for a lot of women that have had trouble, and you mentioned it about medical gaslighting, having trouble finding health practitioners that are listening to them — how did you go? You know, you might have been lucky, you might have had a lovely doctor who was already onto it, or did you have some trouble? How did it go?
Denise Duffield-Thomas (23:51) For you, well, my GP is actually such a beautiful person, and I felt like because I was seeing him when I had my three kids within, like, two years, you know, you just feel like you’re always going to the doctor for something — whether you’re pregnant or with your kids. And so, I felt like he was really open-minded, but he didn’t necessarily — well, I didn’t know how to articulate it. So, I did go on antidepressants first, which I know is a very common thing for a lot of people who don’t really know what the symptoms are. But also, I know myself — I felt very ashamed about even going on antidepressants, so I suffered for a lot longer than I needed to. I never would have judged anyone else for doing it, but I was judging myself because I felt like I should have just done something different. And I remember seeing a post on Instagram from someone that said, “Before you go on antidepressants, you should be, you know, walking 30 minutes a day, making sure you’re eating five fruits and vegetables.” And I was like — I couldn’t even shower. Yeah, yes. I just was on the couch staring into the distance because I know now that it was the perimenopause-ADHD thing. I remember thinking, like, I couldn’t remember people’s names. I couldn’t — it was just — I was like, I’ve got dementia. This is, like, clearly what’s happening. So, I didn’t have the bandwidth to do any of those things, and I just remember feeling very ashamed that I couldn’t figure it out — especially as someone who not only was a very passionate student of personal development but a teacher of it. Yes, well yeah, it’s like, “I should just journal better,” I don’t know — do something, yeah — realising — do it better, yeah. So, I did that, and then I think just — I don’t know how I decided that it was perimenopause. I think just again from being in groups of women, and women who were a little bit older than me as well, and it was just like, “Oh, maybe it’s a thing.” And then of course once you start researching it, the algorithm kicks in, and I’m just so grateful for that. Yes! And I was like, “Oh, maybe this, maybe this is a thing.” And so, I’m so grateful for people who create checklists and, you know, “Is this you?” And it was just asking my doctor, and he actually said, “Look, I’m not an expert in this — go and see this other lady.” And that was so great. The information we can share with each other is priceless.
Dr Lucy Burns (26:19) Ah. Look, it's so interesting. So, you know, we talk a bit about menopause, but we — because we just had an online forum, like a group coaching program — I’d be saying to people, right, well, you know, it sounds like you're going through some menopause, perimenopause, you need to go see a GP. They’d come back to me going, “Lucy didn’t listen,” or “She didn’t listen,” or “I don’t know, what will I do?” So, at the end of the day, we had to create our own platform for women that are having trouble getting the information and the treatment that they need. Because my big passion is collaborative care — so keeping the GP in the loop. Because I really think GPs are the bedrock of health. They need — you know, they're the conductor, if you like — they need to know everything that's going on. It’s very hard if there's somebody over here doing something, and then somebody over here doing something, and then they're kind of out of the loop. So, really keeping them in the loop. But the whole point of doing this was because I was seeing women getting frost — you know, getting dismissed — and it’s like, it’s not how it should be.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (27:21) No, it's not. And it's so frustrating because even to get to an appointment for some people is such a barrier, and then to be so dismissed — it's so disheartening. And I also think too, it's like, we've got so much that we want to accomplish and achieve, and so many of us — we're gonna be in the workforce for decades to come, you know, which is — for a lot of our grandmothers, they weren't necessarily doing a lot of the heavy brain work that so many people continue to want to do. And I just think — can we just get it sorted? Like, you have to advocate for ourselves — can we just get it sorted, just like any other thing, so we can just get on with our lives? But yeah, I love talking about it. I'm like, I've got so many pills, potions, gels — I'll tell you exactly which nook and cranny they're going in — and I have no shame around it anymore. And I feel like that's so great too when people go, “Oh, you seem to be really struggling — like, have you ever looked into this?” It could be just the light bulb moment for somebody to go, “What?” And then if we've got somewhere to send them, where we know they’re not gonna get gaslit, it's like, great, let's keep on sharing this stuff. Because it’s so boring, right? It should just be basic healthcare. It’s not something that should be, like, taking up so much energy for us, right? It should just be like, great, we’ve got this issue — let’s sort it out.
Dr Lucy Burns (28:37) Do you know what, it’s really tricky though. Again, we've got a bit of mindset stuff around people — and you mentioned it even around shame — and the idea, you know, is that you should be able to sort all this out yourself. And that you should just be able to walk more, you should just be able to eat better, or you should just be able to go to bed on time. And ADHD diagnosis again, for me, suddenly I realised — I’m thinking, God, because a bit like you, I'm teaching lifestyle, and here I am staying up till 2 a.m. watching Netflix, wondering, why am I procrastinating? And now knowing that, you know, ADHD chases — that they like new things and exciting things, and they're not very good at boring things, and not very good at, you know, forward planning more than — depending on your brain, but you know, for me certainly not more than a day. I'm hopeless at that. People go, “What do you want to do on Saturday?” and I think, it’s Wednesday, not thinking about that — it’s ridiculous, don’t even. And so, you have, well, what I often call the ADHD tax, where you're then buying, you know, plane tickets the day before you leave because booking them too far ahead feels a bit weird. But the bit that I wanted to say is that we have this part in the world where we've got people that are really advocating lifestyle — and I mean, I'm a lifestyle medicine physician, I love improving people's lifestyle — but it's like, well, you can only do lifestyle, or you're gonna be one of those pill-poppers, and you have to, you know, and there’s some sort of shame around that, when really, it's not one or the other.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (30:05) No, it’s not. And I feel the same way too, where I see people shaming people taking, like, weight loss injections and stuff like that now. And I just think, again, health care should just be basic stuff. We’ve got so many things that we all want to do in the world — if someone wants to take care of their lifelong weight problem with an injection, who cares? Maybe that then gives them the bandwidth to do other cool stuff in their life. So, I don’t know, I just think I had to get over that myself — I know I did — that thing of, it’s cheating or I should try harder. And once I got over that first hump, I was like, what else could science do for me? This is amazing! Why am I trying to do life the hard way? Yeah, it’s not even like thinking about, oh, it’s the cheat mode — it’s just like, again, it’s so boring. Can I just fix that problem so I never have to think about it again? And I do talk about that a little bit in my book, right, where I go — if you lose your keys all the time, get an electronic keypad for your house, and I’ve never had to have that problem ever again. I’m a big fan of automation, of using technology to help us in the things that we struggle with, because I don’t want to spend my life coming up with systems for how I can remember my keys better, because it’s just not an important part of my life. And I think that’s the same with anything — if there’s something that you’re struggling with and automation can help it, or not necessarily always a pill, but you know, if something can help you, why not do that thing?
Dr Lucy Burns (31:45) Yes, I know! And if you need help, there’s no shame in needing help. We’re not islands — we’re not experts in every single thing in our life — and sometimes, you know, having somebody shine a light on things… And again, before we started, I was talking about your books, and somebody had recommended them, and initially the first book I read — and it took me ages to even open it because I didn’t like the title.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (32:12) Totally. I hear this all the time.
Dr Lucy Burns (32:15) I know! And again, it’s so ridiculous, because there I was going, well, I’m not gonna read this book that could help me because I don’t like the title. I mean, you know, the nose, the face, the spite. And so another person one day said, just read it. And so I started reading and I thought, oh my God, this is — it’s like speaking to me. This is, you know, this is my person. Yeah, I hear you, I hear what you’re saying, I’m going to listen, I’m starting to do it. And you suddenly go, ah, a barrier that you’ve just invented — like, I’ve just invented — was stopping me doing and learning something from somebody fabulous.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (33:55) Well, I think there’s a little — sometimes there’s a little bit of oppositional defiance, I think, sometimes. And I’ve heard this with ADHD diagnoses where people go, “What? Everyone? It’s so trendy, so I’m not gonna even do it.” And it’s like, it’s okay just to do something that’s easy. It’s okay. It’s also okay to learn from other people and not have to reinvent the wheel all the time. But I do think though, there is a gendered thing there too, of like, being self-sufficient sometimes, being the good girl, figuring it out ourselves. And what it reminds me of is my grandmother used to say, “I don’t want to make a fuss.” And my mother-in-law was out in Australia — she’s English — and she had a real funny turn because the heat was too much for her, and I had to call an ambulance for her. I really thought she’d, like, carked it, gone, right, I’ve killed my mother-in-law. And the thing that she said as she was being wheeled into the ambulance was, “I don’t want to make a fuss.” Yes! And I’m just like, for God’s sake, like, that is such a big thing, right? Of going, I’ll figure it out myself, I don’t want to make a fuss, I don’t want to be a burden, or I don’t want to take up something that someone else could have.
Dr Lucy Burns (34:06) There’s someone more deserving out there than me.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (34:09) Oh, absolutely. I have to tell you, every time I hear about shortages around medication, around menopause or ADHD, I do feel guilty. Yeah, I do feel guilty. I think, oh no, there’s a shortage, so maybe I shouldn’t take mine. And I’m like, oh no no no, like, this is — I need this to function in the world, it’s okay for me to have it. I also think the thing that shifted my mindset around medication too was — and for my — so I have a son who’s medicated with ADHD as well — is I see people feel really guilty about that, and they feel like it’s the last resort, and they feel like they’re giving in. And I just think, if I or my kids needed glasses, I would get glasses. If I had diabetes and I needed insulin because I couldn’t survive without that hormone, I wouldn’t even think twice about doing that for my kids and for myself. But there’s something there about menopause, or there’s something there about ADHD, where it’s felt like, if I tried harder, I wouldn’t need to resort to that.
Dr Lucy Burns (35:08) Yeah, and you know, I’d pop the weight loss medications into that category as well. It’s like, it’s an optional extra, you know, and it’s not — you know, people deserve to feel well, they deserve to be functioning optimally, and it’s not one or the other. It’s not just pills. I love the phrase “pills and skills” — we learn skills, and when you’ve got them combined together, that’s where the magic happens.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (35:33) Exactly, and then you have the motivation to do things, or you have the energy, or you've, you know, you've lost a little bit of weight so you can go to the gym or whatever it is. But sometimes those things are like the motivation, you know? And ADHD meds — they don't magically make your life easier, they really don't. But for me, it was glasses for my brain. And same with, you know, going on HRT — it was like, oh, I actually can remember my own name again. Like, okay, maybe now I can eat properly because I actually have the bandwidth to do it. And we have so much self-blame. I actually had — because I'm in a lot of spiritual groups as well — I had someone tell me that it's not perimenopause, it's my Kundalini rising. And I'm just like, no, this is a basic, like, biological thing that, you know, my body is running out of this thing because it wants me to die basically, because then, you know, the younger generation come. But it's like, I'm not gonna put up with that, sorry. And I did for a little bit, because I was worried about the judgment of things — yeah, because you've given in, absolutely. And the same thing happened to me actually when I was having kids, and some of the decisions I made early on were really out of feeling guilty. Like, it took me so long to even get nipple shields when I was breastfeeding my second kid because I felt so bad about it. And then I was like, oh my god, why did I — why did I just put myself through so much stress? And it's because I think we just have this inbuilt guilt sometimes — I have to figure it out myself or I have to suffer a little bit — and it's like, why?
Dr Lucy Burns (37:15) Yeah, yeah. I have to hand wash all my cloth nappies because that'll save the world and keep my baby's bottom from burning. And you know, all of those terrible people that use disposable nappies are killing the world. And I was like, sorry, yeah, I didn’t. So yeah, meanwhile, you’re up at three o’clock in the morning washing nappies, wondering why you’re so exhausted.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (37:34) Oh my god, yes, exactly. And also, just because other people have had to suffer in the past doesn’t mean we have to. And I see that a lot actually in comments, where people will go, “Well, it was smooth sailing for me, so why are you so precious about it?” And it’s like, I think you forget — just like childbirth, right? It’s like you forgot maybe how bad it was for you, or maybe you’re one of the lucky people who didn’t need it, and that’s great. But I’m like, oh no, no, I’ve got so much stuff I want to do.
Dr Lucy Burns (38:03) Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s really interesting how again, women can do this — they can invalidate other women’s experiences. And I mean, I just sort of remind them, well, pregnancy — you’ve got some people who sail through, they don’t even know they’re pregnant half the time. And then you’ve got other people who are hospitalised with severe morning sickness. They’re not faking it, they’re not giving in — their body, you know, for whatever reason, they are experiencing this hideous condition. And it’s the same with menopause. You’ll have a few people that, you know, come through, but lots who don’t — lots who don’t realise their symptoms of menopause or perimenopause. But at the end of the day, I always say to people: menopause is like the greatest disruption to our hormonal life. It has ongoing sequelae for brain, bones, heart — not just now, but into the future. And we need to take it seriously, not just think it’s a luxury item.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (39:59) Oh god, I love love that. But the thing is, it still is, you know — it is expensive, all the bits and pieces. And I'm just like, the brain drain that is happening too — it's so short-sighted. So the more that they can put on the PBS, I think it's going to be great because we need to take this seriously, because it is debilitating, you know, and it's costing our country money if we can't have women functioning as they need to be.
Dr Lucy Burns (39:26) Ah, absolutely. And you know, so interesting — so often I think about the phrase, and it's a slur, it's what we will use to denigrate when you go “stupid old woman.” And you think, the old woman being stupid is, or I’m behaving like an old woman — why am I doing this, I’m being like an old woman. And sometimes I think, well, it’s probably because in the olden days, these women were going through menopause. Their brains were foggy, they couldn’t think—
Denise Duffield-Thomas (39:52) And they had the itchiest vaginas in the world. And they were so — and I know before I was, you know, got stuff for that, my itchy vagina made me so cranky. Yeah, yes, I feel so much compassion now. And I do think when you’re younger, you’d have some older woman in the workplace who was a bit forgetful and you’d think, “Come on, Janet, you know, get yourself together.” I have so much compassion now, because they were raw dogging it — like, they were, yes they were, there was nothing for them. I feel so bad now that I was so judgy, but I was. And not to mention some of these poor older women in nursing homes — you can’t even articulate, you know, that they’ve got dry eyes and dry vaginas and they’re miserable. And I just think, oh no, we’re so lucky. I’m — we’re so lucky to be here now.
Dr Lucy Burns (40:40) Yeah, yeah, I think again, soon it will become more mainstream, and that'll be great when, you know, more doctors are educated on how to manage menopause. Because it's actually not that hard, but it's more just unpacking the barriers and the misinformation that's happened from historical data.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (40:59) Yeah, my sister-in-law is diabetic, so she’s got a pump, right? And I think, oh, how good it will be when we’ll be able to tailor what we need based on our cycle — even with ADHD meds. Because as we know now, they don’t always work the same way throughout our cycle. And it’ll be so great to just get a little message in the morning saying, “Okay, you need a little bit of this, a little bit of that,” and it’s all delivered to you. And that’s what is coming for sure. And it’s coming because people are talking about it and advocating for it and not suffering in silence because we feel like we have to. And that’s what’s really exciting, I think, especially for those of us who have kids — it’s exciting to know what’s coming for them.
Dr Lucy Burns (41:40) Absolutely, absolutely. I know, the future is bright,
Denise Duffield-Thomas (41:44) It is. Exactly — you know what my daughter says? She’s seven, my youngest one. If, like, you know, when sometimes you go, “Oh, you’re alright?” she goes, “You don’t know what it feels like in my body.” She’s a good advocate, I know. And it’s like, she’s so just like, “No, you don’t understand, it’s my body and I feel the feelings.” And it’s such the opposite of what our grandmothers were taught — of like, “Don’t make a fuss,” and, you know, “Pretend everything’s okay.” And I’m like, oh, that’s so good.
Dr Lucy Burns (42:13) Children should be seen and not heard.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (42:15) Exactly, you know. And I just think, no, she’s just gonna be like, “No, this is what’s happening in my body and it’s real.” And I’m like, oh, that’s great .I do have hope for that.
Dr Lucy Burns (42:26) Yeah, absolutely. Yes, we want to empower women, not disempower them. And we, you know — and again, sometimes, and I think it’s just learning that all women’s experiences are valid. As women, we can sometimes be judgy, and again, just bringing self-awareness to that and noticing it and going, oh, isn’t that interesting? I realise I’m, you know, judging somebody on this, or this is the story. And when we do that judging bit — and I know you teach this in your courses and whatnot — it’s that it’s actually our own story. It’s our own story that we’re judging.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (43:00) It is, absolutely. And you know, when we can normalise conversations like this about money, you will realise, like, oh, that’s not real, that’s just something that I’ve experienced or that I’ve seen. And I think we can stop judging each other for our pricing, for, you know, what we decide to charge for things, what we spend money on, how we earn our money — I think that’s coming as well. But again, if you’ve never seen anyone — never seen a woman earn money — of course it’s gonna feel new and scary. You know, my mum didn’t have much economic power, my grandmother certainly didn’t. And so it feels like it’s a new and scary avenue. And so the more we can share and help and encourage each other, the better that we’ll be able to master this money thing as well. Because we are shown to be better with money than men sometimes when we have it. And it’s, again, it should just be a normal part of our lives that we’re allowed to talk about money, we’re allowed to participate in the world of money.
Dr Lucy Burns (44:01) Yeah, absolutely, I love that, I love that. Denise, this has been a great conversation. I love it. I love talking about mindset around, you know, menopause, ADHD, health, money, all of the things — it’s been fabulous. Thank you so much for your time today.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (44:16) Oh, thank you, Lucy, for having me. And if anyone wants to connect — I love being on Instagram, by the way — so Instagram @denisedt is my handle. But thanks for having me, Lucy, really juicy questions! Thank you!
Dr Lucy Burns (44:28) Oh, you’re welcome, you’re welcome. I know, and if you do pop over, you’ll see Denise — she’s, what I love is that you show a whole heap of your life, like the dancing, the ballet costumes, which, you know, I think it’s just inspiring for people to think, right, oh, I know you used to do dance when you were a child, but most people as adults don’t suddenly think, “Right, I could just take up ballet and, you know, gallivant around in a tutu.” And there you are doing it.
Denise Duffield-Thomas (44:53) It’s so much fun! We’ve got people from age 19 to 70 in my ballet troupe that we go — and I honestly think too, having HRT has really helped me go back to ballet for my joint health, totally. But I think too, that’s what going through this stage has taught me — is that, you know, life is short. And do things that bring you joy, and dance like no one’s watching, because no one gives a crap about what anyone else is doing. So there’s no point martyring yourself for other people — do what you want to do and bring joy into your life, because no one’s— gonna give you permission to do it.
Dr Lucy Burns (45:28) No, I love that, I love that. Dance like no one’s watching, do what brings you joy — perfect. Alright lovelies, that’s it from me this week. I will talk to you next week, and have a fabulous week. Bye for now.
Dr Lucy Burns (45:43) The information shared on the Real Health and Weight Loss Podcast, including show notes and links, provides general information only. It is not a substitute, nor is it intended to provide individualised medical advice, diagnosis or treatment, nor can it be construed as such. Please consult your doctor for any medical concerns.
